Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 21:01:39 +0100
From: A friend
To: Ahuva Fuchs 
Subject: Re: Paper on AGM

At 18:32 5-01-97 +0200, you wrote:
>Hiya everyone,

Aloha Ahuva !

>
>I'm taking a course on internet, and have to write a final paper.  I'm
>writing one about the flame war that was going on just a few weeks ago,
>and hopefully is over (touch wood....).
>

Say that again. I expect 'them' to be back in a few days or so when they 
get a hold on their university accounts again after the holidays are over. 
Anyway I still hope they are bored with 'us' and leave AGM alone. Well 
below you'll find my 2 cents, feel free to copy and paste in it :-)))

>A few things.  I've been saving posts and mail that I've received about
>this topic.  If anyone would not like to be quoted, please let me know,
>and I'll make sure not to include any of their letters/posts.  In general
>I'll leave out all E-mail addresses, but was planning on using original 
>names. If anyone would prefer I change names, please let me know. 

Well my first question which comes to mind, will you mention it's AGM 
in your paper ? Or just some Internet group ? Anyway if you're striving for 
anonymity I think mentioning AGM and the original names will make a 
traceback real simple. My opinion is that if I would be somehow involved 
in any flame at AGM (while knowing it's against the group rules) I wouldn't 
like my name to appear again in a paper. I think it would just feel like 
pouring salt into old wounds. Anyway we've had the 'anonymous' 
discussion before on AGM when a news reporter wanted to do an 
article on AGM.

>
>Now for the hard requests.  Besides describing what happened, I also 
>have to discuss how it influenced the newsgroup community.  I'm going 
>to be looking at the following questions:
>
>-why is the anti flame rule so important to AGM?  How is the AGM 
>community shaped so that flaming is considered a serious offense? 
>(or as serious as they come in a newsgroup...)

Hmmmmmm well I think, it's just like irl. Being rude to people is being 
treated as not-done, specially not in front of a big audiance. I don't know 
who set the rules, but I feel comfertable with them. But although flames 
are not done, it is still 'allowed' to express your opinion, which can have 
a strong 'corrective' message in it, and this without being rude or offensive 
to the person in question.

>
>-How did AGMers deal with the "invasion"?  (i.e. this mailing list that
>evolved, suggestions to move AGM to another name, deciding to just 
>ignore, and the side issue of what happened with Karl.)

I think the AGM group did a rather good job in dealing with it. Almost
everyone followed the silent defence. The hard bit where the newbies, I
think, who risked to get 'involved' with one of those stealth flamers.
But that is just like in real live, some of us won't make it and just
abandon whatever the're doing at that moment.

>
>- What were the healing proccesses that occured in the group?  (I was
>thinking along the shape picture created by Alex and Morten and others,
>and Phil's "dangerously inclined to Eggplant" continuos post.) 
>

Maybe I would rather prefer to talk about the learning/changing process in 
the group. Although there is some sort of idealistic longing to let the group 
stay the same and heal from battles, the group will learn and change. I 
think the spirit of AGM will definatly change on the long run, as a result 
of the periodic invasions of the 'bad guys'. People will be become more 
suspicious at first and will not take any newcomers for granted. It can 
be compared to sort of a firewall, I think, which newcomers have to climb 
to prove their good intentions. The sort of frontier feel of AGM (like people 
who first discover something) will disappear. Just like seen in other human 
activities. As soon as the mass discovers the same the frontiers will be 
long gone. And as always where ever the mass turns up there are the 
statistical bad guys abusing the rules.

Next to that I feel that the more private issues are more discussed 
through e-mailling lists or talkers instead of at AGM the newsgroup, 
like the one we already had and you just used again for this e-mail. 
My opinion is that the irl's are sort of the final test and confirms ones 
presence in the AGM group. And has anyone experienced any irl flame 
wars yet ? I think this phenomena is only seen on the net where people 
can insult others comfortably hiding behind their very flexible digital 
personalities.

Hmmmm Maybe a bit similar to road-wars battled with cars which I 
sometimes experience on the road to work. People trying to go faster 
on the road by riding ones tails, honk, flash lights and push eachother 
from the road. Their anonymity is guaranteed by the number plate, and 
only this makes people feel in-power and behave like mad on the road 
(or on the net). In real live the same people can be very gentle and polite, 
and makes one ask: how can such a nice person do this, or turn in 
such a beast elsewhere ?


Well I'm going to stop it here Ahuva. I wish you luck with the paper and 
with the e-mail bombing :-) from all the AGM-ers. :-))

Ciao,

Someone...who will start work tommorow after being free for two weeks.


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